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Tie Breaker Controvesy (1 Viewer)

If Head to Head was the tie breaker for a 14 team league with no divisions how should it be applied?

  • Based on the NFL Divisional tie breaker since the league has ONE division. (whoever has the best H2H

    Votes: 11 31.4%

  • Based on the NFL Wild Card tie breaker since the league has NO divisions. (only applies if one team

    Votes: 8 22.9%

  • Other.

    Votes: 16 45.7%
  • Total voters
    35
U

Utter Chaos

Footballguy
There is a debate on how ties in the standings should be resolved. This is for the consolation playoffs so there's not a lot of money involved.

There were 4 teams tied for 8th place with a 5-8 record. According to the rules on the website the tie breakers is 1) record and then 2) total points. According to the commisioner the tie breaker is 1) record and then 2) head to head.

Team A (1395 points, Beat C and D, Lost to B)

Team B (1293 points, Beat A, Lost to C and D)

Team C (1157 points, Beat B, Lost to A and D)

Team D (1085 points, Beat B and C, Lost to A)

Using total points it would be A, B, C, D.

Using Head to Head has A and D at 2-1, then B and C at 1-2. Since A beat D and C beat B it would be A, D, C, B.

Also, we did away with divisions this year so we had one division of 14 teams or no divisions (depending on how you look at it). According to the NFL tie breakers of 3 or more teams, Head to Head is used to break divisional tie breakers but is only used in Wild Card tie breakers if one team beat all of the others (or lost to all of the others in which case they are eliminated from the tie).

So how should the teams be seeded?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
The rules on the website are the rules.

The commish should have adjusted those (before the season started) if he wanted something different.

 
Use the rules on the website.

And head-to-head is meaningless in fantasy football, especially with bye weeks. Total points should always be first tiebreaker.

 
your commissioner is a joke and if he says that his rules beat the rules that are on teh webiste you guys should find his house and punch him in the face in front of his family and tell them what a huge cheater he is because if someone cheats at fantasy football they probably cheat in life and belong in the big house maximum security probably in the hole or maybe not but in the end use the printed rules its easier for everyone and then there is no fight

 
'yellowdog said:
'ArbyMelt said:
Use the rules on the website.And head-to-head is meaningless in fantasy football, especially with bye weeks. Total points should always be first tiebreaker.
Click to expand...
:goodposting:
Click to expand...
Wonder why the NFL doesn't ignore head to head? What if Tom Brady had a sprained ankle when they had to play the Steelers in week 2. Lets say they lose. 15 weeks later when the Steelers and the Patriots are tied at 10-6, I am pretty sure that head to head game is going to count for tie breaker purposes (home field, seeding, wild card etc).Head to head matters in fantasy football.Depth matters in fantasy football. Good depth will help you overcome the bye week bias.But the tie breaker rules absolutely have to be set in stone before the season or draft begins.
 
'Ignoratio Elenchi said:
'Utter Chaos said:
According to the commisioner
Click to expand...
Is this in writing anywhere? Why is he claiming that the tiebreaker is something different than what's been posted on the league website?
Click to expand...
I sent him an email asking why the teams were seeded the way they were and that's when he informed be that Head to Head is the tie breaker. I don't know what was agreed on before the draft. It may be a case where he just didn't update the web site.As it is A and B are playing each other and the game won't be decided until tonight. Teams C and D are done and both scored less than A and B.
 
'Utter Chaos said:
'Ignoratio Elenchi said:
'Utter Chaos said:
According to the commisioner
Click to expand...
Is this in writing anywhere? Why is he claiming that the tiebreaker is something different than what's been posted on the league website?
Click to expand...
I sent him an email asking why the teams were seeded the way they were and that's when he informed be that Head to Head is the tie breaker. I don't know what was agreed on before the draft. It may be a case where he just didn't update the web site.As it is A and B are playing each other and the game won't be decided until tonight. Teams C and D are done and both scored less than A and B.
Click to expand...
Bush league. If he didn't communicate to the league ahead of time his intent for the tiebreaker then what's on the website stands as the official rule.
 
'ArbyMelt said:
Use the rules on the website.And head-to-head is meaningless in fantasy football, especially with bye weeks. Total points should always be first tiebreaker.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say it's meaningless but agree that total points should absolutely be the first tiebreaker. Our league uses total points #1 and then head to head #2.
 
'Utter Chaos said:
'Ignoratio Elenchi said:
'Utter Chaos said:
According to the commisioner
Click to expand...
Is this in writing anywhere? Why is he claiming that the tiebreaker is something different than what's been posted on the league website?
Click to expand...
I sent him an email asking why the teams were seeded the way they were and that's when he informed be that Head to Head is the tie breaker. I don't know what was agreed on before the draft. It may be a case where he just didn't update the web site.As it is A and B are playing each other and the game won't be decided until tonight. Teams C and D are done and both scored less than A and B.
Click to expand...
This is going to depend a lot on the history and dynamics of the league, then. In general, I'd say that you have to follow the rules as written on the website, and that's my answer in this case. However, no one here is going to know your league composition and tendencies. In my long-running local league, we often vote on rule changes before the draft. These don't always make it on to the league website, but we all know what they are. I was just looking at our rules as posted on the website and some of them are outdated and have since been changed (we even wrote in an example one time to clarify one of the rules, and the players mentioned in the example are Curtis Martin, Lamont Jordan, and Ron Dayne, if that gives you any indication how frequently this thing is updated). However, we're all friends, we all know what the rules are, and we have a very trustworthy commissioner and respect his wisdom and authority whenever there is a question or dispute. In this league, if commish told me that the tiebreaker was one thing, even though the website said a different thing, I'd believe him. Because it was months ago and the draft involves a lot of drinking, I don't always remember what we voted on, but I trust that he does.

I know a bunch of fantasy wonks are going to kill me for that, and claim that you can never ever ever go against what's written in the rules, etc. And for the most part I agree with them. But only you know how realistic it is that the commissioner's right, and that the rule as posted on the website is wrong. No one else here is going to give you that advice, because to them fantasy football is Serious Business where commissioners are idiots and are subservient to whatever ESPN says your rules should be. Just figured I'd offer that perspective. Especially if there's not a lot of money on the line, sometimes it's better to exercise your best judgment and keep things in their proper perspective. Is it worth causing a rift among friends to switch around consolation bowl seeding? Doubtful. But again, no one here can tell you that, only you can judge for your own league.

 
Unclear what "website" means in this context.

Is this your league hosting service? Or a site that hosts your official league rules?

If the former, do you have a set of official rules?

I have been in many leagues where the playoff seeding is determined offline, according to league rules.

 
I made a thread at beginning of season warning people of playoff tiebreak issues trying to help out. It got deleted about 5 minutes later, too bad you didn't see it the 5 minutes it was here. It would have saved you this headache. Good luck.

 
'firstseason1988 said:
I made a thread at beginning of season warning people of playoff tiebreak issues trying to help out. It got deleted about 5 minutes later, too bad you didn't see it the 5 minutes it was here. It would have saved you this headache. Good luck.
Click to expand...
I saw that thread. It was filled with spelling errors and personal insults to Joe Bryant. You're lucky you didn't get banned for life.
 
'dagwood said:
'yellowdog said:
'ArbyMelt said:
Use the rules on the website.And head-to-head is meaningless in fantasy football, especially with bye weeks. Total points should always be first tiebreaker.
Click to expand...
:goodposting:
Click to expand...
Wonder why the NFL doesn't ignore head to head? What if Tom Brady had a sprained ankle when they had to play the Steelers in week 2. Lets say they lose. 15 weeks later when the Steelers and the Patriots are tied at 10-6, I am pretty sure that head to head game is going to count for tie breaker purposes (home field, seeding, wild card etc).Head to head matters in fantasy football.Depth matters in fantasy football. Good depth will help you overcome the bye week bias.But the tie breaker rules absolutely have to be set in stone before the season or draft begins.
Click to expand...
It has more to do with all those Steelers and Patriots (save Brady) actually lining up on the field and playing against each other that H2H means something...as opposed to our little fantasy world.
 
'firstseason1988 said:
I made a thread early in the season to help out with situations like this. It lasted about 5 minutes before being deleted. Not sure why. The suggestion was decimal scoring for this situation. I tried to tell you months ago.
Click to expand...
'firstseason1988 said:
I started a thread at beginning of season trying to help people out with theses kinds of issues. It got deleted in about 5 minutes. Not sure why. I asked fbg to have an article at beginning of season after they deleted my thread. good luck, too bad you didn't read my thread the 5 minutes it was here.
Click to expand...
'firstseason1988 said:
'Ghost Rider said:
Points scored should always be the first tiebreaker in FF.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that was my conclusion on the thread that got started and deleted in 5 minutes.
Click to expand...
'firstseason1988 said:
At beginning of the season I started a thread to warn of these types of scenarios. it was deleted in 5 minutes. Sorry you didn't see it during that time. trying to help and fbgs had some issue with it.
Click to expand...
'firstseason1988 said:
I started a thread at beginning of season trying to help people out in playoff tiebreak scenarios. It got deleted in about 5 minutes, too bad you didn't see it then. Not sure why fbg moderator would delete someone trying to help out.
Click to expand...
'firstseason1988 said:
I made a thread at beginning of season warning people of playoff tiebreak issues trying to help out. It got deleted about 5 minutes later, too bad you didn't see it the 5 minutes it was here. It would have saved you this headache. Good luck.
Click to expand...
 
Somebody should start a thread at the beginning of the season to try to give people some help with tiebreakers so their leagues don't get stuck in situations like this.

 
'Ignoratio Elenchi said:
'firstseason1988 said:
I made a thread early in the season to help out with situations like this. It lasted about 5 minutes before being deleted. Not sure why. The suggestion was decimal scoring for this situation. I tried to tell you months ago.
Click to expand...
'firstseason1988 said:
I started a thread at beginning of season trying to help people out with theses kinds of issues. It got deleted in about 5 minutes. Not sure why. I asked fbg to have an article at beginning of season after they deleted my thread. good luck, too bad you didn't read my thread the 5 minutes it was here.
Click to expand...
'firstseason1988 said:
'Ghost Rider said:
Points scored should always be the first tiebreaker in FF.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that was my conclusion on the thread that got started and deleted in 5 minutes.
Click to expand...
'firstseason1988 said:
At beginning of the season I started a thread to warn of these types of scenarios. it was deleted in 5 minutes. Sorry you didn't see it during that time. trying to help and fbgs had some issue with it.
Click to expand...
'firstseason1988 said:
I started a thread at beginning of season trying to help people out in playoff tiebreak scenarios. It got deleted in about 5 minutes, too bad you didn't see it then. Not sure why fbg moderator would delete someone trying to help out.
Click to expand...
'firstseason1988 said:
I made a thread at beginning of season warning people of playoff tiebreak issues trying to help out. It got deleted about 5 minutes later, too bad you didn't see it the 5 minutes it was here. It would have saved you this headache. Good luck.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
:mellow:
 
'RUSF18 said:
'dagwood said:
'yellowdog said:
'ArbyMelt said:
Use the rules on the website.

And head-to-head is meaningless in fantasy football, especially with bye weeks. Total points should always be first tiebreaker.
Click to expand...
:goodposting:
Click to expand...
Wonder why the NFL doesn't ignore head to head? What if Tom Brady had a sprained ankle when they had to play the Steelers in week 2. Lets say they lose. 15 weeks later when the Steelers and the Patriots are tied at 10-6, I am pretty sure that head to head game is going to count for tie breaker purposes (home field, seeding, wild card etc).Head to head matters in fantasy football.

Depth matters in fantasy football. Good depth will help you overcome the bye week bias.

But the tie breaker rules absolutely have to be set in stone before the season or draft begins.
Click to expand...
It has more to do with all those Steelers and Patriots (save Brady) actually lining up on the field and playing against each other that H2H means something...as opposed to our little fantasy world.
Click to expand...
Explain.If you beat me head to head but then I beat NFL Team C and you lose to NFL Team C, why are you more deserving of a playoff spot than me? Especially if our one head to head game was in your stadium, giving you a decided advantage in the primary tiebreaker, which actually seems decidedly unfair. You beat me in your house and I performed one game better than you over the other 15 games. I know we need some system to break ties, but giving one team home field advantage in order to do so seems even less than arbitrary.

 
'TobiasFunke said:
'RUSF18 said:
'dagwood said:
'yellowdog said:
'ArbyMelt said:
Use the rules on the website.

And head-to-head is meaningless in fantasy football, especially with bye weeks. Total points should always be first tiebreaker.
Click to expand...
:goodposting:
Click to expand...
Wonder why the NFL doesn't ignore head to head? What if Tom Brady had a sprained ankle when they had to play the Steelers in week 2. Lets say they lose. 15 weeks later when the Steelers and the Patriots are tied at 10-6, I am pretty sure that head to head game is going to count for tie breaker purposes (home field, seeding, wild card etc).Head to head matters in fantasy football.

Depth matters in fantasy football. Good depth will help you overcome the bye week bias.

But the tie breaker rules absolutely have to be set in stone before the season or draft begins.
Click to expand...
It has more to do with all those Steelers and Patriots (save Brady) actually lining up on the field and playing against each other that H2H means something...as opposed to our little fantasy world.
Click to expand...
Explain.If you beat me head to head but then I beat NFL Team C and you lose to NFL Team C, why are you more deserving of a playoff spot than me? Especially if our one head to head game was in your stadium, giving you a decided advantage in the primary tiebreaker, which actually seems decidedly unfair. You beat me in your house and I performed one game better than you over the other 15 games. I know we need some system to break ties, but giving one team home field advantage in order to do so seems even less than arbitrary.
Click to expand...
That's a good point, and there are certainly other tiebreaking methods that could be employed that would seem to be more equitable. But could you imagine the fan reaction if two teams ended up tied, and the one that lost their earlier matchup got in the playoffs while the one that won their earlier matchup didn't? I don't think that would go over well with the masses.The funny thing is, hasn't something like this has happened in college football before (I don't really follow it, so I can't provide an exact example)? Like, you have two teams at the top of the rankings, and they have the same record, and one of them lost to the other earlier in the season. The one that lost their matchup ends up being ranked #1, the rationale being that their one loss came to one of the top 2 teams in the country, while the other team's loss came to a presumably weaker opponent. I'm sure that, too, is controversial.

In any case, there is some validity to the idea of using head to head record as a tiebreaker in the NFL. There's really no validity to using it in fantasy football, where you have no control over your opponents' scores.

 
'Ignoratio Elenchi said:
'Utter Chaos said:
'Ignoratio Elenchi said:
'Utter Chaos said:
According to the commisioner
Click to expand...
Is this in writing anywhere? Why is he claiming that the tiebreaker is something different than what's been posted on the league website?
Click to expand...
I sent him an email asking why the teams were seeded the way they were and that's when he informed be that Head to Head is the tie breaker. I don't know what was agreed on before the draft. It may be a case where he just didn't update the web site.As it is A and B are playing each other and the game won't be decided until tonight. Teams C and D are done and both scored less than A and B.
Click to expand...
This is going to depend a lot on the history and dynamics of the league, then. In general, I'd say that you have to follow the rules as written on the website, and that's my answer in this case. However, no one here is going to know your league composition and tendencies. In my long-running local league, we often vote on rule changes before the draft. These don't always make it on to the league website, but we all know what they are. I was just looking at our rules as posted on the website and some of them are outdated and have since been changed (we even wrote in an example one time to clarify one of the rules, and the players mentioned in the example are Curtis Martin, Lamont Jordan, and Ron Dayne, if that gives you any indication how frequently this thing is updated). However, we're all friends, we all know what the rules are, and we have a very trustworthy commissioner and respect his wisdom and authority whenever there is a question or dispute. In this league, if commish told me that the tiebreaker was one thing, even though the website said a different thing, I'd believe him. Because it was months ago and the draft involves a lot of drinking, I don't always remember what we voted on, but I trust that he does.

I know a bunch of fantasy wonks are going to kill me for that, and claim that you can never ever ever go against what's written in the rules, etc. And for the most part I agree with them. But only you know how realistic it is that the commissioner's right, and that the rule as posted on the website is wrong. No one else here is going to give you that advice, because to them fantasy football is Serious Business where commissioners are idiots and are subservient to whatever ESPN says your rules should be. Just figured I'd offer that perspective. Especially if there's not a lot of money on the line, sometimes it's better to exercise your best judgment and keep things in their proper perspective. Is it worth causing a rift among friends to switch around consolation bowl seeding? Doubtful. But again, no one here can tell you that, only you can judge for your own league.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: Very well said!
 
'Topes said:
Unclear what "website" means in this context.Is this your league hosting service? Or a site that hosts your official league rules?If the former, do you have a set of official rules?I have been in many leagues where the playoff seeding is determined offline, according to league rules.
Click to expand...
It's hosted by CBS Sport Line. The scoring system and rules are posted under one of the menus. Rule states 1st tie breaker is winning percentage, 2nd tie breaker is total points.
 
'Utter Chaos said:
'Topes said:
Unclear what "website" means in this context.Is this your league hosting service? Or a site that hosts your official league rules?If the former, do you have a set of official rules?I have been in many leagues where the playoff seeding is determined offline, according to league rules.
Click to expand...
It's hosted by CBS Sport Line. The scoring system and rules are posted under one of the menus. Rule states 1st tie breaker is winning percentage, 2nd tie breaker is total points.
Click to expand...
Commish could have changed that on the site. At any rate, H2H doesn't work under these circumstances with multiple teams so even if it was the first tiebreaker it boils down to total points scored./thread
 
IMO

A written set of rules, agreed to and properly vetted with the league supercedes what's on the webste. The website is an administrative tool. What the website says may just be an administrative error.

 
'Ignoratio Elenchi said:
'TobiasFunke said:
'RUSF18 said:
'dagwood said:
'yellowdog said:
'ArbyMelt said:
Use the rules on the website.

And head-to-head is meaningless in fantasy football, especially with bye weeks. Total points should always be first tiebreaker.
Click to expand...
:goodposting:
Click to expand...
Wonder why the NFL doesn't ignore head to head? What if Tom Brady had a sprained ankle when they had to play the Steelers in week 2. Lets say they lose. 15 weeks later when the Steelers and the Patriots are tied at 10-6, I am pretty sure that head to head game is going to count for tie breaker purposes (home field, seeding, wild card etc).Head to head matters in fantasy football.

Depth matters in fantasy football. Good depth will help you overcome the bye week bias.

But the tie breaker rules absolutely have to be set in stone before the season or draft begins.
Click to expand...
It has more to do with all those Steelers and Patriots (save Brady) actually lining up on the field and playing against each other that H2H means something...as opposed to our little fantasy world.
Click to expand...
Explain.If you beat me head to head but then I beat NFL Team C and you lose to NFL Team C, why are you more deserving of a playoff spot than me? Especially if our one head to head game was in your stadium, giving you a decided advantage in the primary tiebreaker, which actually seems decidedly unfair. You beat me in your house and I performed one game better than you over the other 15 games. I know we need some system to break ties, but giving one team home field advantage in order to do so seems even less than arbitrary.
Click to expand...
That's a good point, and there are certainly other tiebreaking methods that could be employed that would seem to be more equitable. But could you imagine the fan reaction if two teams ended up tied, and the one that lost their earlier matchup got in the playoffs while the one that won their earlier matchup didn't? I don't think that would go over well with the masses.The funny thing is, hasn't something like this has happened in college football before (I don't really follow it, so I can't provide an exact example)? Like, you have two teams at the top of the rankings, and they have the same record, and one of them lost to the other earlier in the season. The one that lost their matchup ends up being ranked #1, the rationale being that their one loss came to one of the top 2 teams in the country, while the other team's loss came to a presumably weaker opponent. I'm sure that, too, is controversial.

In any case, there is some validity to the idea of using head to head record as a tiebreaker in the NFL. There's really no validity to using it in fantasy football, where you have no control over your opponents' scores.
Click to expand...
I suppose, although as I said the problem with head to head in the NFL is that it can actually be less than arbitrary. If you beat me in OT at your stadium I'd say my team performed better that day once you build in the standard bookmakers' HFA. It's fine that you get credit for winning since I'll get an extra home game so it evens out, but giving extra weight to a single game where one team has an unearned advantage has always seemed kinda weird to me. Of course it only happens when two teams from different divisions are tied for a wild card and they played head to head, so I guess it's not really a big deal.As far as fantasy goes, total points is fine as a tiebeaker if you say so before the season. Then everyone knows that's part of the game.

 
Just read an email from the commish and he said he couldn't change the CBS rules but did post a message at the beginning of the season that said "1st tiebreaker is head to head then total points". And sure enough he did.

So the first part of the poll is moot as head to head would be the tie breaker before total points.

The big question is how does head to head work if it's not completely defined (which is the second part of the poll)? Does one team have to beat all of the other or do you just use the records between the teams tied?

 
You need to go by the default website settings.

If no one caught the rules during the season...or asked..."Hey how is the site different from your commissioner's note?" it's too late.

You can manually track it head to head if you like and pay out accordingly.

It's important that your commissioner make a ruling ASAP and stop being such a ##### bag.

I have to keep my league honest all of the time. I'm told to #### often, 'like it matters..' then it matters and I told them so but often the only other person that cares enough is the team getting screwed out of the money.

TOny

 
'Joe Summer said:
'firstseason1988 said:
I made a thread at beginning of season warning people of playoff tiebreak issues trying to help out. It got deleted about 5 minutes later, too bad you didn't see it the 5 minutes it was here. It would have saved you this headache. Good luck.
Click to expand...
I saw that thread. It was filled with spelling errors and personal insults to Joe Bryant. You're lucky you didn't get banned for life.
Click to expand...
:fishing: :lol: Yeah real lucky. :drive:
 
'Utter%20Chaos said:
Just read an email from the commish and he said he couldn't change the CBS rules but did post a message at the beginning of the season that said "1st tiebreaker is head to head then total points". And sure enough he did.

So the first part of the poll is moot as head to head would be the tie breaker before total points.

The big question is how does head to head work if it's not completely defined (which is the second part of the poll)? Does one team have to beat all of the other or do you just use the records between the teams tied?
Click to expand...
The NFL does not use H2H between 3+ teams UNLESS one team is undefeated (or winless) against the others.However, if your league does not specifically address this issue, then I would say that it's OK to use H2H in a 4-way tie (assuming all 4 teams played an equal number of games against each other).

This is why Total Points is the best way to go.

 
'Utter Chaos said:
'Topes said:
Unclear what "website" means in this context.

Is this your league hosting service? Or a site that hosts your official league rules?

If the former, do you have a set of official rules?

I have been in many leagues where the playoff seeding is determined offline, according to league rules.
Click to expand...
It's hosted by CBS Sport Line. The scoring system and rules are posted under one of the menus. Rule states 1st tie breaker is winning percentage, 2nd tie breaker is total points.
Click to expand...
Is there no other set of rules?I'm in a league hosted on CBS. There are discrepancies here and there that need to be overruled by the commish (me) from time to time.

As such, the "rules" posted on the host site are known to be erroneous. In any way they conflict with out actual rules, the actual rules supercede.

In some cases, leagues simply defer to how their host site is set up. In such cases, this should be made very clear.

(In such cases, folks had best all be aware to look through rules, to see that all is set up correctly.)

'Brock Middlebrook said:
IMO

A written set of rules, agreed to and properly vetted with the league supercedes what's on the webste. The website is an administrative tool. What the website says may just be an administrative error.
Click to expand...
What he said.
 
Head to Head IS NOT the same thing as record against common opponents.

Your commish is bastardizing and combining/confusing the two...

Since NO team beat ALL 3 of the other teams, NO team has won the Head to Head tie-breaker.

Therefore you MUST move to the NEXT tie-breaker.

JUST LIKE THE NFL DOES IN THIS SAME CIRCUMSTANCE...

 
'Utter Chaos said:
'Ignoratio Elenchi said:
'Utter Chaos said:
'Ignoratio Elenchi said:
'Utter Chaos said:
According to the commisioner
Click to expand...
Is this in writing anywhere? Why is he claiming that the tiebreaker is something different than what's been posted on the league website?
Click to expand...
I sent him an email asking why the teams were seeded the way they were and that's when he informed be that Head to Head is the tie breaker. I don't know what was agreed on before the draft. It may be a case where he just didn't update the web site.As it is A and B are playing each other and the game won't be decided until tonight. Teams C and D are done and both scored less than A and B.
Click to expand...
This is going to depend a lot on the history and dynamics of the league, then. In general, I'd say that you have to follow the rules as written on the website, and that's my answer in this case. However, no one here is going to know your league composition and tendencies. In my long-running local league, we often vote on rule changes before the draft. These don't always make it on to the league website, but we all know what they are. I was just looking at our rules as posted on the website and some of them are outdated and have since been changed (we even wrote in an example one time to clarify one of the rules, and the players mentioned in the example are Curtis Martin, Lamont Jordan, and Ron Dayne, if that gives you any indication how frequently this thing is updated). However, we're all friends, we all know what the rules are, and we have a very trustworthy commissioner and respect his wisdom and authority whenever there is a question or dispute. In this league, if commish told me that the tiebreaker was one thing, even though the website said a different thing, I'd believe him. Because it was months ago and the draft involves a lot of drinking, I don't always remember what we voted on, but I trust that he does.

I know a bunch of fantasy wonks are going to kill me for that, and claim that you can never ever ever go against what's written in the rules, etc. And for the most part I agree with them. But only you know how realistic it is that the commissioner's right, and that the rule as posted on the website is wrong. No one else here is going to give you that advice, because to them fantasy football is Serious Business where commissioners are idiots and are subservient to whatever ESPN says your rules should be. Just figured I'd offer that perspective. Especially if there's not a lot of money on the line, sometimes it's better to exercise your best judgment and keep things in their proper perspective. Is it worth causing a rift among friends to switch around consolation bowl seeding? Doubtful. But again, no one here can tell you that, only you can judge for your own league.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: Very well said!
Click to expand...
Yes, very very good posting. I just noticed the other day that a section of one of my league's rules still talk about a starting lineup set up that we replaced about 4 years ago. If someone came to me claiming their opponent's lineup is invalid because I forgot to update it with a rule change that was voted on, passed, and implemented, I'd probably laugh at them.
 
'TobiasFunke said:
'RUSF18 said:
'dagwood said:
'yellowdog said:
'ArbyMelt said:
Use the rules on the website.And head-to-head is meaningless in fantasy football, especially with bye weeks. Total points should always be first tiebreaker.
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:goodposting:
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Wonder why the NFL doesn't ignore head to head? What if Tom Brady had a sprained ankle when they had to play the Steelers in week 2. Lets say they lose. 15 weeks later when the Steelers and the Patriots are tied at 10-6, I am pretty sure that head to head game is going to count for tie breaker purposes (home field, seeding, wild card etc).Head to head matters in fantasy football.Depth matters in fantasy football. Good depth will help you overcome the bye week bias.But the tie breaker rules absolutely have to be set in stone before the season or draft begins.
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It has more to do with all those Steelers and Patriots (save Brady) actually lining up on the field and playing against each other that H2H means something...as opposed to our little fantasy world.
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Explain.
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In fantasy, your scores are almost completely independent of what team you are playing. You both would have scored the same even if facing other opponents. So basing a tiebreak on those teams week 6 scores because that's the week you happened to be scheduled against each other is little more valid than basing it on both of your scores weeks 7, 8, or 9. In the NFL, what both teams scored is directly impacted by their opponent in their game, so it is a measure of how those teams actually fare against each other.That's not the case in the NFL.
 
'Sea Duck said:
'geoff8695 said:
Head to Head IS NOT the same thing as record against common opponents.

Your commish is bastardizing and combining/confusing the two...
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So are you, it seems.
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His phrase common opponents is wrong, but his point he was trying to make is correct.In the NFL, head to head means you played and swept all teams in the tiebreak. It does not just mean best record against the teams in the tiebreak.

 
'Greg Russell said:
'Sea Duck said:
'geoff8695 said:
Head to Head IS NOT the same thing as record against common opponents.

Your commish is bastardizing and combining/confusing the two...
Click to expand...
So are you, it seems.
Click to expand...
His phrase common opponents is wrong, but his point he was trying to make is correct.In the NFL, head to head means you played and swept all teams in the tiebreak. It does not just mean best record against the teams in the tiebreak.
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:goodposting: This IS what I was trying to convey.

The commish is mishandling the proper use of the Head-to-Head tie breaker, at least if you are trying to emulate the one the NFL uses...

 
'Greg Russell said:
'Sea Duck said:
'geoff8695 said:
Head to Head IS NOT the same thing as record against common opponents.

Your commish is bastardizing and combining/confusing the two...
Click to expand...
So are you, it seems.
Click to expand...
His phrase common opponents is wrong, but his point he was trying to make is correct.In the NFL, head to head means you played and swept all teams in the tiebreak. It does not just mean best record against the teams in the tiebreak.
Click to expand...
No it doesn't. In the NFL, "Head To Head" means "best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs".You're mistakenly thinking of "Head To Head Sweep", which is a different category.

 
'Sea Duck said:
'Greg Russell said:
'Sea Duck said:
'geoff8695 said:
Head to Head IS NOT the same thing as record against common opponents.

Your commish is bastardizing and combining/confusing the two...
Click to expand...
So are you, it seems.
Click to expand...
His phrase common opponents is wrong, but his point he was trying to make is correct.In the NFL, head to head means you played and swept all teams in the tiebreak. It does not just mean best record against the teams in the tiebreak.
Click to expand...
No it doesn't. In the NFL, "Head To Head" means "best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs".You're mistakenly thinking of "Head To Head Sweep", which is a different category.
Click to expand...
My bad, you're right. Though head to head is only used for division tiebreaks.
 
'Joe Summer said:
'Utter%20Chaos said:
Just read an email from the commish and he said he couldn't change the CBS rules but did post a message at the beginning of the season that said "1st tiebreaker is head to head then total points". And sure enough he did.

So the first part of the poll is moot as head to head would be the tie breaker before total points.

The big question is how does head to head work if it's not completely defined (which is the second part of the poll)? Does one team have to beat all of the other or do you just use the records between the teams tied?
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The NFL does not use H2H between 3+ teams UNLESS one team is undefeated (or winless) against the others.
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This is only partly correct. The NFL does use Head To Head for 3-way or 4-way ties within the division. But when it's a 3-way tie between teams from different divisions, they don't use H2H unless there is a sweep.

 
'Sea Duck said:
'Joe Summer said:
'Utter%20Chaos said:
Just read an email from the commish and he said he couldn't change the CBS rules but did post a message at the beginning of the season that said "1st tiebreaker is head to head then total points". And sure enough he did.

So the first part of the poll is moot as head to head would be the tie breaker before total points.

The big question is how does head to head work if it's not completely defined (which is the second part of the poll)? Does one team have to beat all of the other or do you just use the records between the teams tied?
Click to expand...
The NFL does not use H2H between 3+ teams UNLESS one team is undefeated (or winless) against the others.
Click to expand...
This is only partly correct. The NFL does use Head To Head for 3-way or 4-way ties within the division. But when it's a 3-way tie between teams from different divisions, they don't use H2H unless there is a sweep.
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I just looked it up and you were correct here Sea Duck :thumbup:

Considering the OP said this fantasy league was changed to only ONE division. the divisional tiebreaker of best head-to-head record amongst the four teams with identical records is the correct answer.

Please disregard my earlier posts, which were really only half right at best and thinking of multiple divisions...

 
'geoff8695 said:
'Sea Duck said:
'Joe Summer said:
'Utter%20Chaos said:
Just read an email from the commish and he said he couldn't change the CBS rules but did post a message at the beginning of the season that said "1st tiebreaker is head to head then total points". And sure enough he did.

So the first part of the poll is moot as head to head would be the tie breaker before total points.

The big question is how does head to head work if it's not completely defined (which is the second part of the poll)? Does one team have to beat all of the other or do you just use the records between the teams tied?
Click to expand...
The NFL does not use H2H between 3+ teams UNLESS one team is undefeated (or winless) against the others.
Click to expand...
This is only partly correct. The NFL does use Head To Head for 3-way or 4-way ties within the division. But when it's a 3-way tie between teams from different divisions, they don't use H2H unless there is a sweep.
Click to expand...
I just looked it up and you were correct here Sea Duck :thumbup:

Considering the OP said this fantasy league was changed to only ONE division. the divisional tiebreaker of best head-to-head record amongst the four teams with identical records is the correct answer.

Please disregard my earlier posts, which were really only half right at best and thinking of multiple divisions...
Click to expand...
So it looks like you would interpret a league of 14 teams as one division rather than no divisions. I think a case could be made either way as the definition of division is to separate into smaller parts. In this case there is no separation.....thus, no divisions so the Head to Head Sweep tie breaker should be applied.Apparently the commish is applying the divisional H2H tie breaker. I was team B which despite having the 2nd highest point total ending up playing the team with the highest point total, team A (who I beat H2H). The Marshawn Lynch touchdown at the end of the game gave him the victory 111 to 108. Would have been real interesting if I started Andy Dalton instead of Carson Palmer (a 111-111 tie). Meanwhile the contest between Teams C and D finished at 78 to 63.

I could make a stink about it and say I should have played team C but I'd still have two win two games, it's only for a $75.00 prize, and the commish is in a league that I run so I don't want to upset him and have him pull out of my league.

Thanks for the help and comments everybody.

 
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'Sea Duck said:
"Head To Head" means "best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs".
Click to expand...
I agree with this. But if this does NOT give a clear winner (which in this case, there are two 2-1 teams among like opponents) then you go to the NEXT tie-break, even if it means one of the 1-2 teams gets it. In my league, the next tiebreak is Overall Points.So, if the NEXT tiebreak is Total Points, then they should be seeded A,B,C,D, but not because that's the website rules, but because the H2H tiebreak didn't provide a clear winner.EDIT: FWIW, the H2H tiebreak only provides ONE seed. If it came down to:B = 3-1C = 2-2A = 1-3Then the seeding doesn't automatically become B,C,A. You would get B on top, and then go through the same exercise for like games between A and C
 
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'CamelGod said:
'Sea Duck said:
"Head To Head" means "best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs".
Click to expand...
I agree with this. But if this does NOT give a clear winner (which in this case, there are two 2-1 teams among like opponents) then you go to the NEXT tie-break, even if it means one of the 1-2 teams gets it. In my league, the next tiebreak is Overall Points.So, if the NEXT tiebreak is Total Points, then they should be seeded A,B,C,D, but not because that's the website rules, but because the H2H tiebreak didn't provide a clear winner.EDIT: FWIW, the H2H tiebreak only provides ONE seed. If it came down to:B = 3-1C = 2-2A = 1-3Then the seeding doesn't automatically become B,C,A. You would get B on top, and then go through the same exercise for like games between A and C
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You know what, I have to eat my own words here. Because you only get ONE seed from a tiebreak between the four teams, the top seed is A: No clear winner from H2H, A takes the Overall Points.Then you need to do a tiebreak between B,C, and D.With that, D is 2-0, C is 1-1, B is 0-2, so D is the next seed.Then you need to do a tiebreak between B and C With that, C is the 3rd seed, and B is last.So A,D,C,B is accurate, even if it was arrived for different reasons.
 
'dagwood said:
'yellowdog said:
'ArbyMelt said:
Use the rules on the website.And head-to-head is meaningless in fantasy football, especially with bye weeks. Total points should always be first tiebreaker.
Click to expand...
:goodposting:
Click to expand...
Wonder why the NFL doesn't ignore head to head? What if Tom Brady had a sprained ankle when they had to play the Steelers in week 2. Lets say they lose. 15 weeks later when the Steelers and the Patriots are tied at 10-6, I am pretty sure that head to head game is going to count for tie breaker purposes (home field, seeding, wild card etc).Head to head matters in fantasy football.Depth matters in fantasy football. Good depth will help you overcome the bye week bias.But the tie breaker rules absolutely have to be set in stone before the season or draft begins.
Click to expand...
It's pretty simple really. No NFL team can lose a game on their bye week. Head-to-Head tie-breaker is pointless. Everybody builds their bench differently. If you have a stud QB or RB, you might have his backup on your bench in case he goes down. Completely worthless for "Depth" on a bye week. Having two or three stud players on a bye shouldn't be cause for you to lose as a tie-breaker. Total points shows the strength of your team and management. That should be the tie-breaker.
 
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